Curse

Missing HB · Apr 16, 2012, 04:57 PM // 16:57

We aren't really going far now, it would be nice to stop having posts with people who keep saying the opposite without really valuable arguments( " i'm sure " , " i don't like" isn't an argument). Then, it will turn into the same , people will go on with troll posts, the last post will be entirely right and noone will post after.

I think the thread should be renamed, except if i didn't understood the OP point. I guess it's about being able to do something in PvP, so it should more likely be renamed to " Heroes Somewhere For PvP". If the idea is just about replacing 4 henchmen by 4 heroes, the idea won't lead anywhere since it won't change anything towards activity( still need to find other humans anyway), and the thread should be closed..

MithranArkanere · Apr 16, 2012, 11:16 PM // 23:16

The problem was NOT what heroes couldn't do as well as players. It was what heroes could do way better than player.

It is irrelevant that a player can do some things better than heroes, if heroes still have several things which they do way better than most players (players not using skill bots, that is).

That problem is still there, and it will probably be, specially since they (supposedly) improved hero AI to make them use more skills better. So heroes won't go back anytime soon.

Heroes were supposed to fill gaps. But people use them instead for what they can do better.

Missing HB · Apr 17, 2012, 05:43 AM // 05:43

We could also use the same argument about facerolling PvE content then.. But like you mentionned, the problem is filling gaps on empty hours..

superraptors · Apr 17, 2012, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Auron, posts like that that claim "everyone who did PvP on a regular basis" wanted the removal of heroes evidently exclude me from doing PvP on a regular basis, even though three years ago I played like 9 hours a day or something ... also I know plenty of people who quit because of a lack of opponents. Some friends and I even tried making a guild named "Awaiting a worthy opponent once" as a lament, but the name had already been taken.

This post hit the bull's eye.

how did you manage 9 hours a day in 2009 when pvp already started to die after 07 drastically.

the 'new' people who started pvp late, started in an era where heroes was used as the norm.

Quote:

also I know plenty of people who quit because of a lack of opponents

you think?

lack of people because the 'people' got bored and that is all there is to it.

the "bored people" would rather stop playing then play heroway bullshit all day. its not just heroes they got bored of(although a major factor), they get bored because of repetitive, stale formats & balancing.

people aren't just going to suddenly return even if the best changes are made to pvp.

Jeydra · Apr 17, 2012, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

how did you manage 9 hours a day in 2009 when pvp already started to die after 07 drastically.

the 'new' people who started pvp late, started in an era where heroes was used as the norm.

I sat down in front of my computer and did it. What's so difficult?

Quote:

you think?

lack of people because the 'people' got bored and that is all there is to it.

the "bored people" would rather stop playing then play heroway bullshit all day. its not just heroes they got bored of(although a major factor), they get bored because of repetitive, stale formats & balancing.

people aren't just going to suddenly return even if the best changes are made to pvp.

What makes you think you're more qualified than me to judge people who you probably don't know, but I formed guilds and played together with for months and years?

EDIT: Oh yeah I just played a 3-round AT and played zero games, big whoop. Do you think we really prefer to do nothing for 80 minutes as opposed to facing heroes?

Daesu · Apr 19, 2012, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The problem was NOT what heroes couldn't do as well as players. It was what heroes could do way better than player.

That is because most people don't use their brains. I beat heroes easily simply by going behind a wall, they wont even know when they are not hitting you. The problem is, heroes are TOO EASY to beat in pvp.

If these noobs can't even beat a stupid computer AI such as this, what chance do they have against good players? These must be the same people who even have problems beating PvE content since PvE monsters use the same AI.

Missing HB · Apr 19, 2012, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

That is because most people don't use their brains. I beat heroes easily simply by going behind a wall, they wont even know when they are not hitting you. The problem is, heroes are TOO EASY to beat in pvp.

If these noobs can't even beat a stupid computer AI such as this, what chance do they have against good players? These must be the same people who even have problems beating PvE content since PvE monsters use the same AI.

/agree. That's pretty much my point of view as well. If you have 8 humans on vent and lose to a team with 2-4 henchs today, then you probably missed something. Why should you insist on facing them 8v8 if you have issues on real fights ?

Unfortunately, what people( not me) are debating about is how boring facing heroes is. Something that can be understandable, although it's not much diferent from facing the same build and tactic over and over. That's why some suggested to have codex arena only with heroes..

MithranArkanere · Apr 19, 2012, 11:10 PM // 23:10

AI doesn't detect properly when they are blocked. They sometimes move to some other location to try and hit you, but that's rather rare, so using projectile spells and attacks with heroes and henchmen in PvP is not a good idea.
But that is irrelevant.
As I said before, their flaws were not the reason to remove them.

It was their strengths. They DO have strengths.

Give them a spammable build that does not rely on using skills in a certain order, and that can't be blocked by walls, and they'll use it better than the average player.

If you can still use that build better than them, congratulations, you are better than the average player, but that still doesn't change anything.

No matter how many flaws they still have, and how easy it may be to beat them in average, GW is a game with HUGE gaps between "the worst builds" and "the best builds". And the best builds you could give to certain heroes were too much.

It doesn't matter how bad the bad builds were.

Daesu · Apr 20, 2012, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

AI doesn't detect properly when they are blocked. They sometimes move to some other location to try and hit you, but that's rather rare, so using projectile spells and attacks with heroes and henchmen in PvP is not a good idea.
But that is irrelevant.
As I said before, their flaws were not the reason to remove them.

It was their strengths. They DO have strengths.

Give them a spammable build that does not rely on using skills in a certain order, and that can't be blocked by walls, and they'll use it better than the average player.

If you can still use that build better than them, congratulations, you are better than the average player, but that still doesn't change anything.

No matter how many flaws they still have, and how easy it may be to beat them in average, GW is a game with HUGE gaps between "the worst builds" and "the best builds". And the best builds you could give to certain heroes were too much.

It doesn't matter how bad the bad builds were.

The point is, if you can't even beat a stupid AI that is downright predictable, how you can ever hope to win against a good human team?

We face the SAME AI in PvE, if the AI is too "intelligent" for you to beat, then you should just drop PvP, go back to PvE, and learn how to beat them first before attempting to beat other players. Predictable AI like that can be easily fooled if you are experienced.

I just find it funny when people exaggerate how frightening and "smart" the monster AI is. The monster AI is so bad that they have to "cheat" to bring the monster levels to >20 so that they can be of some challenge, hero levels however, are capped at 20. Comon, compared to good players who can strategize and adapt, the stupid AI is easy peasy. If they can't even beat PvE (i.e. what the game AI actually is) then don't bother to PvP.

Reverend Dr · Apr 20, 2012, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Predictable AI like that can be easily fooled if you are experienced.

The predictable AI, predictably interrupts my 1/4 skills with no margin of error. It cannot be faked out, unlike even the interrupt bots that people have run which can be faked out.

They apply protective spells including weapons with a reaction time that is simply not possible for a human to achieve, the AI predictably prots every spike with higher than normal efficiency.

That is the old tease hero bar. Interrupts and weapon spells, nothing more. Where is the "predictability" of the AI that we can exploit?

The stupid AI in PvE is less about the AI being stupid while being more about Anet making terrible skill selections for the monsters.

superraptors · Apr 20, 2012, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The predictable AI, predictably interrupts my 1/4 skills with no margin of error. It cannot be faked out, unlike even the interrupt bots that people have run which can be faked out.

They apply protective spells including weapons with a reaction time that is simply not possible for a human to achieve, the AI predictably prots every spike with higher than normal efficiency.

That is the old tease hero bar. Interrupts and weapon spells, nothing more. Where is the "predictability" of the AI that we can exploit?

The stupid AI in PvE is less about the AI being stupid while being more about Anet making terrible skill selections for the monsters.

qft .

MithranArkanere · Apr 20, 2012, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

[...]

On top of what Reverend Dr said, the hero AI is not exactly the same AI enemies have. It's HM AI plus some tweaks here and there depending on profession of the hero.

AI can SEE your skill bar, HP, Energy, effects you have on and your weapon equipped.
They KNOW your skills. They will often ignore the "lowest threat" skills like flare and save their interrupts for the "highest threat" skills in your bar like meteor shower. 'Faking out' is sometimes useless against heroes and HM enemies because of that.

When HM enemies are easy to beat it's because things like they not having "the best build" they could have, they not having healing and support as good as yours or you outnumbering them with party size, minions and/or spirits. Not because using 'PvP strategies and techniques' against them.

The reason why they replaced heroes with henchmen instead removing AI party members altogether from PvE was the builds that exploited the AI.

Jeydra · Apr 20, 2012, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Why didn't you guys whine for nerfs to hero AI instead of removing them completely then?

superraptors · Apr 20, 2012, 11:22 AM // 11:22

cuz the point is the majority of the veteran pvpers didn't want to play against repetitive 'AI' shit, its not competitive, period.

Daesu · Apr 20, 2012, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The predictable AI, predictably interrupts my 1/4 skills with no margin of error. It cannot be faked out, unlike even the interrupt bots that people have run which can be faked out.

Then why did you cast your crucial spell when you know you are going to be interrupted? Why can't you just cast something else and let them waste their interrupt before casting your crucial spell?

Furthermore, I have also pvp with human interrupters who can interrupt with deadly speed and AI DOES miss with interrupts sometimes so their interrupts are not always successful.

If heroes are so impossible to beat like you guys said, then we must be SUPERB players to be able to beat level 20 to 30 monsters in HM with their even faster casting, and attack speeds! Are you saying PvEers > PvPers? Because fighting the AI IS PvE which you seem to have problems beating.

I think you guys should post a thread in "Questions and Answers" on how to beat the game AI. Many PvEers would be happy to help you there.

@superraptors: That is a different issue than was brought up. The issue in discussion right now is that the hero AI is too difficult to beat in PvP. And I am sure you didn't interview all the veteran pvpers.

Missing HB · Apr 20, 2012, 04:55 PM // 16:55

We should change the topic to " allow players to have 3 henchs to codex ". It's not like anyone here will change his opinion anyway, although players against heroes don't show so many arguments...

Fact is the game is going to be farmed by bots and syncers in a few months when GW2 will be out, and we need at least 1 format to have easy activity on GW1 and that could bring back players from time to time.

I'm logging on GW sometimes, and i rarely see any team in codex or HA when it's not quest day( and even when it is, there will be opponents on euro evenings only..). Plus, like Jeydra mentionned, GvG tournaments tend to get boring( and long) when there is noone to face between rounds apart of a bunch of cheaters on hunter's isle.

I'm not even going to mention Alliance Battles..

Reverend Dr · Apr 20, 2012, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I'm a troll

When I'm reacting to an enemy spike to use SB/Aegis/Infuse there isn't an option to "cast something else". Even if I could these bars don't have 1 interrupt, they have 4-5. The general idea is that 1/4 second skills can't be reflex interrupted, yet bots are able to do this.

If your human interrupters are good enough to be compared to a bot, then they are botting.

And again, the monster bars in PvE are atrocious. I'd love to see every group in PvE have a tease bot in the middle of it. That would be absolutely hilarious.

There were two major problems with hero bars. Firstly, there was almost no variance. There were 2-3 builds that were good on heroes those were all that was being run. And since a team must base themselves around the heroes there was almost no variance in team builds between teams that ran heroes. Secondly, heroes play effectively better than a large number of players. This is what we have been discussing. Many bad teams got carried by heroes. They never learned how to play, they never got better, they just added gwen and dunkoro. We're not getting better since we are effectively playing against AI and they aren't getting better since they rely upon it. Its incredibly unhealthy for the game.

superraptors · Apr 20, 2012, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Then why did you cast your crucial spell when you know you are going to be interrupted? Why can't you just cast something else and let them waste their interrupt before casting your crucial spell?

Furthermore, I have also pvp with human interrupters who can interrupt with deadly speed and AI DOES miss with interrupts sometimes so their interrupts are not always successful.

@superraptors: That is a different issue than was brought up. The issue in discussion right now is that the hero AI is too difficult to beat in PvP. And I am sure you didn't interview all the veteran pvpers.

im 100% sure you never played tombs or even gvg when heroes were rampant.

no one can rupt 1/4 skills unless:
1. botting
2. random
3. pre-emptive
4. you can see into the future

Quote:

If heroes are so impossible to beat like you guys said, then we must be SUPERB players to be able to beat level 20 to 30 monsters in HM with their even faster casting, and attack speeds! Are you saying PvEers > PvPers? Because fighting the AI IS PvE which you seem to have problems beating.

oh right you are a pver, i am pretty sure you have 0 credibility.

Jeydra · Apr 20, 2012, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

im 100% sure you never played tombs or even gvg when heroes were rampant.

no one can rupt 1/4 skills unless:
1. botting
2. random
3. pre-emptive
4. you can see into the future

5. lucky

People have DShot Infuse before, and heroes cannot interrupt 1/4s spells on demand. And you have not addressed why the solution is not simply to nerf hero interrupts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend_Dr

And again, the monster bars in PvE are atrocious. I'd love to see every group in PvE have a tease bot in the middle of it. That would be absolutely hilarious.

Even if every group in PvE had a Tease bots they'll still die easily. You don't wan to challenge Daesu on this. I'm 99% certain he has more knowledge about PvE than you.

superraptors · Apr 21, 2012, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

5. lucky

People have DShot Infuse before, and heroes cannot interrupt 1/4s spells on demand. And you have not addressed why the solution is not simply to nerf hero interrupts.

Even if every group in PvE had a Tease bots they'll still die easily. You don't wan to challenge Daesu on this. I'm 99% certain he has more knowledge about PvE than you.

5. lucky? being lucky and random is the same thing.

ok lets say we nerf heroes to oblivion, are you still going to enjoy steam rolling ai and feel satisfied?(im guessing yes) if so you should stick to pve because that is basically the same thing.

also im 100% sure you started pvping in 2009 and onwards where the game has already deteriorated.